Saturday, November 1, 2008

More Oldies

I am currently doing my own review of the Unix Haters Handbook, and it is probably going to be long, so posting might be light this weekend. Anyway, here are a few good internet gems.



27 comments:

kerensky said...

gotta love the unix as a cult article. Puts *nixes in perspective.

Anon E Moose said...

What I love is how (some) people continually proclaim how Unix has been around since 1968 (or whatever year it was), with visions springing to mind of proud swelled chests and a grand old network operating system that has been there since The Beginning, with Linux following faithfully in those Great Traditions.

...and then to read the unix haters stuff and see just how utterly misleading those statements are... Unix began as a toy, and no one ever meant for it to be anything but.

Didn't Linux begin the same way?

Before being co-opted by the hairy nerd god with the yak fetish, that is...

thepld said...

Its remarkable how UNIX weenies have evolved into Freetards, much like UNIX to Linux.

Anonymous said...

Dude you post too often. Slow down and watch the flames rise.

kerensky said...

Every time I check back the # of flames @ LHB have increased. How sad, there is some really good quality stuff here. Where is julian67 when you need him?

thepld said...

"Every time I check back the # of flames @ LHB have increased. How sad, there is some really good quality stuff here. Where is julian67 when you need him?"

Stick around long enough and the obnoxious Wine apologist might come back.

kerensky said...

"Stick around long enough and the obnoxious Wine apologist might come back."

Hope he hasn't f**ked up his kernel w/ an update and so can't post. HAHAHA!

oiaohm said...

Unix started life as a phone exchange OS. It was built for a task it just grew into other things.

I am not a wine apologist.

If you bash something bash it on facts that are correct. Just because traffic cannot get to a web server is no reason to say that wine people don't provide the stuff they should. Should someone block access to Microsoft server and say they are defective because they cannot provide access. Yes it happened in the past. Answer is NO. Blame the guy for screwing with the network. Formal sorry for incorrect article really should have been done. Saying that you could not get older versions and the cause was interference with internet.

Basically Linux hater redux is gulity of unfair compares. If his compares were valid and complete same thing will happen as before to Linux Hater. His blog entry will be linked to by lwn linux.com and many other Linux sites. Linux people take hate in there stride.

Lack of this mirroring really shows that his reports are not valid yet.

Not just myths and recycle history to make a case. So should people bring up the failure of MS BOB to say that MS will fail. Answer is no.

Unix was never designed for desktop. Linux for years has followed the Unix line of trying to do Video card access 100 percent from user mode with no central control.

Linux kernels 2.6.28 and 2.6.29 are planed change this with DRI2 and KMS.

All Unix's have unique kernels with unique syscalls. It was so bad that in 2002 they voted and passed that Linux had syscall stability for over 10 years what was longer than any other Unix so Linux syscalls are now the offical standard for writing applications to run on many different Unix's.

So comparing Linux to Unix is funny.

Linux is different. Past a particular point Linux is no longer Unix. Its now heading on the path to a true desktop supporting kernel. Linux also lead the way in API/ABI stabilization between the Unix's.

So saying its repeating Unix is a bit of a laugh. More correct is Linux is fixing Unix. Just made a bigger mess than Unix first to find out what needed doing.

Get valid or fade way.

Anon E Moose said...

"Not just myths and recycle history to make a case."

So LHR should hold himself to a higher standard in debate than the howler monkeys of freetardia with their shouts of "BSOD" and "Reboot 10 times a day", etc..

I'm down with that.

I still don't see anyone out there deciding where Linux should go, and then steering it in that direction. The community is far too easily distracted by shiny things.

Forget the whole driver debate. Why, for instance, did it take so bloody long to get working and Reliable WPA support into what is supposedly one of the Most Secure Network Operating Systems out there? It's only in the last year and a half, maybe, that you didn't have to edit config files and sacrifice a win95 CD to Techgnosis to get the damned thing to work, maybe, with 1 network, never mind roaming.

Meanwhile every distribution worth a damn was rushing to bring in 3D desktops, and THAT was premature beta crap until recently. Now that it works, I'm sick of it and disable the rubbish..

That's how I see it in the couple hours a week I can devote to seeing how many new promises the distributions are making, and breaking.

kerensky said...

"Linux kernels 2.6.28 and 2.6.29 are planed change this with DRI2 and KMS."

Get real! As linux-hater said efforts to fix the DRI @ Xwindows&co continue at a glacial pace. Even if they manage to release all this in that timeframe it'll be like wireless support was. Some people have it out of the box, some w/ a little work, some have to use buggy experimental kernels, Overall a very shitty experience for most. I'd not hold my breath expecting a big change desktop wise.

The following is from the Unix Haters Handbook: "At first, the Unix infection was restricted to a few select groups inside Bell
Labs. As it happened, the Lab’s patent office needed a system for text processing.
They bought a PDP-11/20 (by then Unix had mutated and spread
to a second host) and became the first willing victims of the strain. By
1973, Unix had spread to 25 different systems within the research lab, and
AT&T was forced to create the Unix Systems Group for internal support".

It was used for text processing not as a phone exchange OS! And they developed it originally for playing Space travel on a PDP-7.

Anonymous said...

@Anon E Moose
Exactly! If GNU/Linux devs had a working roadmap overall and and real intention of taking on M$ they'd have released a proper graphics system first then fancy 3D desktops! But oh no! Freedom! Freedom to do whatever the fuck I feel like.

oiaohm said...

WPA is kinda goes back to simple Wifi lack of support. History repeated they tried user space solution the same one you have to do on windows with cards that don't support WPA. Yep just as bad unstable/evil for a long time and distrobutions for some reason though no need to ship a gui with it. WPA Supplicant is quite old. It was functional in 2004.

This the big issue people blame Linux for failing and stupidity of distributions.

3d desktops is another case of laugh. Developers of compiz also like wine officially say there are problems http://wiki.compiz-fusion.org/FAQ Yet distributions give it to end users without passing on these facts.

pulseaudio again. Distrobution idea we must provide features at all costs suffer the users.

There are guiding forces in Linux but they are not centralized.

Linux Standard Base focuses on getting projects to stablise the API/ABI as well as a common platform between distrobutions.

Freedesktop.org focuses on desktop related problems including x.org.

Linux kernel in kernel driver issues.

Alsa is ment to be everything audio but there focus is mostly drivers.

Yes there are a lot of places to kick and the softest target is Distributions. Why in hell do you abuse you users.

Its not the community. Its the Distributions leaders have the idea they need shiny to attract new users. Yet most linux users don't use shiny.

If you do really talk to the Linux community lot of distrobutions really are not providing to them either. There are a lot of places where the general Linux community and a Linux Hater can see eye to eye.

You also have to remember for years Distributions and there supporters focused on server support so they are a little out of there depth. Same applies to Linus the head of the Linux kernel. Lot of patches going into kernel have to deal with sections that have nothing to deal with server space.

Yep there is going to be a little bit of a bumpy ride as it all sorted out. The transition from server to desktop is not a nice coversion.

Also remember 2 years back over 90 percent of the Linux community had no interest in desktop support at all. Those numbers have changed a lot.

Yes there are roadmaps if you know where to find them.

Anonymous said...

@oiaohm: Unfortunately this sounds like the same story we've been hearing for years now. Things will get better, just give them time.
Meanwhile Apple's marketshare just increases and M$ rakes in buckets of money. Plus Google is trying to move everything off the desktop via Google Docs, Picasa, etc and M$ is joining in with Windows Live and Midori or whatever they are calling it. If this cloud crap takes off the Desktop wont mattter Linux needs those standards now not in the future.

oiaohm said...

They though they did have a working X11 when they create 3d desktops.

Yep as history shows they did not. So project to create new DRI ie DRI2 was created. Yet distrobutions kept on shipping broken after the x.org server people are saying it broken.

Distributions are guilty of not listening to lead developers.

Only one problem should have been out the middle of this year but one big block of problem turned up so it got delayed 6 months.

So DRI2 turns up either in dec 2008 or jan 2009. Note its already merged mainline Linux kernel for the 2.6.28 release.

"glacial pace" Yep glaciar has made it.

Lots of testing has gone in the DRI2 development. Reason why it got delayed it failed testing. Better to say with something that works as long as you don't run stuff like compiz than swap to something that will not work.

New server includes fall back option. Ie drop back to DRI 1 way. So yes for people who it works they can use DRI 2 and compiz stable. For people who it don't status normal no compiz.

Kernel Mode Switching also has been delayed due to quality problems. Yet Fedora has no problem shipping with it now.

Buggy experimental kernels are giving both to users now.

I timeline based on stable if it did not I could say you could have had Kernel Mode Switching and DRI2 at start of 2008.

The slow pace was caused by quality control. You cannot have it both ways. Do you want to be given unstable or stable?

Unlike wireless support there are no were near the numbers of makers in video cards. And you don't have a fall back if driver is not provided.

Intels dri2 drivers are already mainline. ATI drivers are basically ready to go. Only one not 100 percent sure on is Nvidia.

This is the problem about reading old Linux Hater logs. They are out of date. Slow downs were caused by quality problems.

Issue here cloud still needs a OS under it. Clouds don't exist in a OS free world.

Standards are a lot closer to complete than you give them credit.

Most of the key standards needed will be in place before the middle of next year. No other year since the start of the Linux Standard Base could I even claim that.

Linux also has standards seeing it move into the cloud.

Simple fact you are not tracking what is going on. Standards forming have appeared slowly.

thepld said...

"
Simple fact you are not tracking what is going on. Standards forming have appeared slowly."

HAHAHA! Slowly!? How about not at fucking all? Are you really that fucking stupid to believe that the standards will work now? There's been countless attempts to standardize, all have failed, why should I believe you when you say they will happen soon?

Here's my fucking standard: We take all the devs of various competing projects that do the same damn thing, and make them play a game of Russian roulette. Whoever lives has their project incorporated into the standard spec.
Even if that doesn't work, at least we'll sleep better knowing there's less FOSSTards in the world.

oiaohm said...

"countless attempts to standardize" LOL

There have not be countless. There are 10 attempts total.

Posix formal standard.
freedesktop.org
Linux standard base.
Have all lived threw the test of time.

There are another 5 that are active and 2 that are dead.

Unified Linux is dead. Unified Unix Drivers are dead. Yep a unified ABI for writing Unix drivers guess what no hardware makers made any drivers for it.

Not one of them works on Russian rollet method.

Without freedesktop.org you don't have drag and drop common menus and the list goes on. Every year new standards get added and others become fully formal supported or discarded.

Same happens in posix and linux standard base.

Its a progressing cycle. Key requirement for include in Linux Standard Base ABI is that your project has included a stable ABI over time. There are no rules in the Linux Standard Base preventing duplication. If you do read it there are a few duplicated bits.

Even when the freedesktop and Linux standard base started they said it would take years to sort threw the mess and get agreements.

Anonymous said...

This blog unsuccessfully copies the old linuxhater's blog. Be original. Like Microsoft. Wait... that didn't come out right...

thepld said...

"This blog unsuccessfully copies..." Its the OSS Way!

oiaohm said...

thepld unsuccessfully copies are not exactly the open source way.

Nice little myth by windows users there.

Normally long term either the fork from the master branch gets better than the master, Get merged back in or dies.

Over time some projects like the Linux kernel and gcc have got smartter instead of having forks all over the place they have a central management of the process. Causing merging to happen over time.

This is why growth of forks is slowing in the open source world. One day we could even see the event that its reversing.

This year alone there were more project merges in the open source world than any year before. Also less new forks formed.

Cycle of fork and merge started in the Unix world and has been happening ever since. Linux kernel is in a major merge cycle at moment.

There are 3 outcomes. Beware even Microsoft and closed source has made failed copies of things. Look at the numbers of clones of a simple archive manager than have been and gone. Equal numbers closed and open source.

unsuccessfully copies is the way of software development at times closed or open.

Anonymous said...

Dude, your english sucks even more than your reasoning skills. No one here believes your "change and standards are on the way". Give it up.

Anonymous said...

It was September of 2008. Linux desktop usage share was 0.93%. Among the Linux faithful, there was widespread anticipation of Linux reaching the much coveted 1% usage share mark on the desktop. It would have taken not a day less than 17 long years, but it would have been worth it to the few (but vocal) Linux bums. Linux bums were upbeat & talking trash.

Then it happened. The Linux share slipped to 0.91%. ASUS said Linux is not essential to its netbooks' success. It said it's withdrawing Linux netbooks from mass market outlets. It started marginalizing Linux. Linux netbook sale slowed to a trickle in Australia. Acer (which was talking trash against MS earlier) announced 95% of its netbook sales in Australia are accounted for by the XP models. MSI announced Linux netbooks are returned four times as much as XP netbooks. Apricot dropped Linux from its models. Lenovo said its Linux netbook models will be unavailable in U.S. and Australia.

Another month passed. Linux usage share dropped a whopping 0.2% (a big number by Linux standards) to 0.71%. It became clear that Linux on the desktop is f*cked forever. Loons put the lipstick on the Linux pig, but the consumers are hip to their tricks.

Windows Vista, meanwhile, continues its steady march on the desktop, garnering an additional 1% usage share every single month. (You read that right. What the lameass Linux couldn't achieve in 17 long years, Vista accomplishes every single month: it gains a 1% usage share.)

Check it out, Linux bums!

Linux Haters Redux said...

anonymous right before me, I so want to post that rant.

Anonymous said...

anonymous right before me, I so want to post that rant.

I have no problem, but I may have taken liberties with timing of certain events. ASUS probably dissed Linux before the drop to 0.91%.

kerensky said...

@November 3, 2008 7:23 AM:
Maybe change and standards are on the way but you can be sure GNU/Linux devs will find a way to screw it up.
I remember the LHB having an entry on the LSB or maybe it was pointed out in the comments. If your distro doesn't pass the LSB compliance test you can just edit the results to get a pass. Looking for the entry now. Anyway the point was nobody in the FOSS community really signed onto standards. This anti establishment attitude is built into FOSS. Who really believes this "change and standards" will happen in the future?

kerensky said...

Found the comment i wanted:http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/2008/06/standardizing-linux-suckiness.html, the one by abel cheung.

As usual the other comments are pretty instructive.

oiaohm said...

Please take a closer look. XP ASUS version larger storage.

So it was status normal windows device given better hardware so it sold more. Please read the ASUS numbers again Linux was out sold by the exact same percentage of solid state vs harddrive. XP had harddrive and solid state and Linux had only solid state. There is a problem in there numbers here. XP should have had more than 70 percent what happened to the XP solid state.

Its another case if uncountable. Yet even those XP versions still had Linux on them in the form of splashtop.

Vista numbers are also unable to count at least 80 percent of them are XP downgrades from my experience.

List the major issues why Linux cannot be a desktop OS at moment and lead one is so simple.

Third party applications. That is the key change coming. Distributions stop being the only source for applications that are simple to install.

Next is management of mass installs.

Both are being sorted out.

Now browser numbers really I don't trust them. http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

That one say 3 percent Linux. I can find numbers anywhere from 10 percent threw to 0 for Linux.

So far no one really has a good way of counting the numbers of OS out there. Point to 0.91 and saying that is right is a joke. Number of OS percents if you pick raw sites can swing around by over 80 percent. Yes there are sites out there were 80% plus of users visiting are Linux.

Without a complete demographic of what sites they used. There is no way to tell if there sites are OS neutral selections. Google OS stats use to be a dependable one before they pulled it. Simple fact no matter the OS everyone used google.

Next major problem for web stats is people like me with rolling IP's and auto clearing cookies get counted many times times.

Basically they are nothing more than a rough guide. Holding them up as the be all and ended all shows how big of a fool you are.

If your distro doesn't pass the LSB compliance test you can just edit the results to get a pass. Wrong That is now independent tested so no cheating. Besides LSB 4.0 makes cheating not a issue applications can ship 100 percent distribution independent with it.

Anyway the point was nobody in the FOSS community really signed onto standards. This anti establishment attitude is built into FOSS.
Badly wrong. Simple fact is without Standards OSS on Linux would not work at all.

Linux kernel being change able required the ABI of the kernel to be stable. Maintained as a Standard.

There are over 10000 key projects that do maintain stable ABI's with clearly define break points.

Standard changes coming allow third party applications to take advantage of the existing stable ABI's including the means to ship with them. LSB 4.0 all distrobutions binary compatibility option is provided done as a standard. Linux kernel standard ABI and design makes that possible. If dynamic link loader was build into kernel it would not be possible.

LSB 4.1 universal for all distrobutions install system. Two nice new standards.

The anti establishment attitude is sometimes a good thing. Establishment being distrobutions and the right to operate independent is a great change.

People have no clue really how little worked before standards started. KDE/Gnome/WM war. Was a major pain in but. Applications in that went as far as not running if the wrong WM was loaded, not sharing a clipboard not doing drag and drop to applications built by a different tool kit. Basically the Linux/Unix desktop did not work at all before standards.

Lot of programs that existed in that war now back standards as there core following.

I could say that you are out of date and talking about OSS from before 1995. Getting standards formed is not a fast process.

Linux haters old comment on it is out of date. LSB 4.0 deals with that problem a different way. Allowed to ship your own exactly the same as MS allows.

Linux kernel being internal unstable not going to change anytime soon. Funny enough its turning out the scheduler has really not much to do with performance at all. Its locks have a greater effects. So even adding or removing a single bit of hardware can have a huge effect depending on how well the driver was coded. Windows is effected by exactly the same thing.

kerensky said...

All right yes the GNU/Linux of today is heavily commercialized and quite business friendly. Just look at the sponsors of KDE. Antiestablishment is probably the wrong word.